Merge the Oak Division Groups?

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Pharaoh97
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Re: Merge the Oak Division Groups?

Postby Pharaoh97 » Thu Apr 20, 2017 4:52 pm

Zankman wrote:
I play only two other Browser Games at this time - and I have tried many, with few being good enough in my estimate - and I think I have the perfect example for you.

Both are by the same developer, as their simple yet deep formula is basically perfect for me. They are Rocking Rackets and Rocking Soccer (Tennis and Football Management games, respectively).
Both utilize AI Players (Managers?), however, Rocking Soccer is the better example to use and contrast the Quidditch Manager game system to - for the obvious reasons of it being a Team Sport, as opposed to Tennis' individual/dual nature.

-


You play rocking rackets??? Thats nice, I used to play it haha. Maybe I will return playing it one day :D


As for the thread subject, I also agree that having some both teams down the lower leagues would be beneficial to keep the interest of new managers up. Altough, making them worse than humans wouldn't make much sense to me because if your team is already better than the bot teams from the start you are almost given a free win just like with the BYE system. I have created a new team this year and if I only had this team, my season would be pretty boring with only 2 other teams in my league. Having competitive bots would up the challenge and help to keep new managers interest.

The thing I like about QM is that you play two games a day so the pace of the game is fairly quick. With bot teams, the new managers would get in the action right from the start instead of playing about 10 real competitives game in their first month of play.

Also, I agree with Cygnus that AI trades wouldn't be necessary for now. The simple fact that their would be competitive bot teams to play against at the start of the game would already be a great improvement
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Season 53 Bronze league 2 co-champion,
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Re: Merge the Oak Division Groups?

Postby Cygnus » Thu Apr 20, 2017 4:55 pm

Pharaoh97 wrote:Having competitive bots would up the challenge and help to keep new managers interest.


The bot teams would start out and develop the same as if they were an unattended human team, only that the bot teams would line up their players in correct positions when they are generated.
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Pharaoh97
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Re: Merge the Oak Division Groups?

Postby Pharaoh97 » Thu Apr 20, 2017 5:00 pm

Cygnus wrote:
Pharaoh97 wrote:Having competitive bots would up the challenge and help to keep new managers interest.


The bot teams would start out and develop the same as if they were an unattended human team, only that the bot teams would line up their players in correct positions when they are generated.


Wich would give them an equal start as human teams, I like it :D
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Founded season 47,
Season 52 Steel division 2 champion :Steel1st: ,
Season 53 Bronze league 2 co-champion,
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Reached Honour at season 56

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Re: Merge the Oak Division Groups?

Postby Zankman » Thu Apr 20, 2017 9:50 pm

Cygnus wrote:I still think that bot teams should be something temporary.


Mind explaining why?
I don't really see a possible argument in that favor; like, as you said in your last post, the AI Teams just kinda setting up basic line-ups and nothing else is quite underwhelming.

Meanwhile, why I argue for permanent Teams is consistency, believability, world depth, heck, even "realism", as well as a help to the overall functionality - in addition to the already determined huge benefit for helping "early game".

Instead of dozens of Teams constantly appearing and vanishing, their being a steady and set numbers of AI teams that are truly persistent (and that Human Managers "inherit") would make the game world feel much more alive and, well, legitimate - much less how it would fix the issue of the original topic.

I don't see why the League system on the bottom end would constantly expand and change in chaotic ways, instead of just featuring a fixed number of Teams.

Likewise, the suggestion of creating new, temporary Teams every season would just use more computing power/time to spawn/delete players.

Cygnus wrote:Players with expired contracts should become available to the human players and bot teams should only be a placeholder for new human-controlled teams in the lowest leagues. I wouldn't want a bot team to win the Club World Cup or take away a spot from a human player in a higher division.


But from the start we said that the AI Managers/Teams would have the basic functions, with the goal being to fill up Oak and partially Iron (and Sapling if it existed); so, as I said, some basic and/or fixed Academy, Stadium and Friendly Settings, along with simplistic Strategy, Contract and Trade Logic.

In no universe would they then steal away high-profile Players from the Tradelist or ever be good enough to reach Silver or even Bronze.

Cygnus wrote:Also, there is a load of more important things to add to the game instead of writing an AI that trades players from one bot team to another, for example.


Well, that depends on the person. IMO this whole premise of filling up the game world with persistent "weak but functional" AI Teams would be a great help to make everything feel more "real" and eliminate a lot of early struggles and issues a Manager can face.

Oh and as I implied, it really doesn't have to be complicated.
As far as I am concerned, AI Trade Logic can be as simple as "Always have at least 7 Players; place Tradelist Bids occasionally on Players with High Averages (relative to their Squad); do the same with Direct Negotiation attempts."

Again, just to help keep them functional and make everything more lively - nothing super in-depth, just like the Rocking Soccer one I linked.

I mean, I'd love a Loan System in the game so that we don't have to do it "manually" over the forums, but, I can live with that; meanwhile the AI Teams would greatly help newer Players actually get invested and give everything more depth.

---

Pharaoh97 wrote:
You play rocking rackets??? Thats nice, I used to play it haha. Maybe I will return playing it one day :D


Yeah, have from 2014-ish I think. I like the pace and simplicity!

Pharaoh97 wrote:Also, I agree with Cygnus that AI trades wouldn't be necessary for now. The simple fact that their would be competitive bot teams to play against at the start of the game would already be a great improvement


I was really just talking about having simple systems in place to ensure they have enough Players, as well as them occasionally trying to get a better (higher Average) one. Nothing crazy!
Legacy of the London Dynamo
Founded:
Season 30 - Sapling 8.
Promotions (first season in new league):
Season 31 - Oak 5.
Season 32 - Iron 4.
Season 34 - Steel 3.
Season 37 - Bronze 2.
Season 38 - Silver.
Season 41 - Gold.
Season 44 - Honour.
Titles:
Season 48 - Club World Cup 1st Place.
Highest Honour Placement(s):
Season 44 - 5th.
Rivals:
Isle of Man Hood, Gillingham Giants, London Asswinders, London Ravens, Exeter Patronum, Dudley Dursleys...
Inspiration
London Inquisitors (RIP, S24 - S40).
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Re: Merge the Oak Division Groups?

Postby Engelbert » Fri Apr 21, 2017 1:14 pm

I'm really happy that you considered my idea a good aproach.

I would like to add another aspect to the question "How to keep new players?". It took me a while to understand the loan system. This informal system is a quite interesting idea. However, it is deeply related to trust between players. No one (not even me) would trust to loan a player to me, as I can simply disappear from the game. On the other hand, it is easy to trust old players who have more than one team. This creates a giant discrepancy between the players in Oak Division who are, in fact, new players and those who have more than one team. A loan feature would solve this, as big teams would loan players without fear of not receiving them back. This is an important tool to balance a bit more the game. From my experience so far, this seems as a game designed for old players that is not very good in welcoming newcomers. In my first week I played just two real matches and saw teams from the same division with teams that would crush me without any effort. Althought the game mechanics is nice and interesting, it is pretty boring at least in the beggining.
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Re: Merge the Oak Division Groups?

Postby Ruse » Fri Apr 21, 2017 2:33 pm

I haven´t made this experience but it would be an awesome tool to loan players without a risk, cause also experienced players could made mistakes, like a forgotten contract extension and in the past many loandeals created problems and many loanplayers become Free agents instead of coming back to the club.

As player who work often with a loansystem and also profit a lot from a parentclub agreement with the Alchemists i think many players are ready to gave also new players the chance to loan their players.
If you shows intrest in the game, maybe write a short introduction or post something in forums, you have a great chances to find a loanpartner.
But more important is that you just asked for a loan in the tradeforum. I have made the experience that many players like to help new players with loans to grew up faster and become a part of the community.
I loaned four players from the alchemists in my first season and Cygnus-Flamel invested much in my Academy and my stadium. i loaned out players to completly newplayers and if my finances or my sportive situation ask for that i would do it again.

The only thing that makes it diffrent this season is, that never before in the past 15 season there was so many teams searching for loans and also that so many veteran managers are searching for loans.

To get back to the topic. I really like the idea of creating AI teams to make a stronger competition.

another idea could be to create an oak cup to create games beetween realplayer teams from diffrent divisions. Their could be groupstages untill day 20 or 25. New teams join the cupgroups. as deciding factor counts not most wins, but the elorating like in the first two seasons of the game.
The best 8 play the finals.

Or changing the leaguepyramid, so that the last league becomes not divided but all teams come into the same division with open number of teams, so everyone plays against real players at the start. It could be also work with elo rating, maybe, but could also work with wins.
If at the seasonchange the oakleague is complete, it could become a league which is divided into many divisions and the sapplies become the league which is open for all league.
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Re: Merge the Oak Division Groups?

Postby Pharaoh97 » Fri Apr 21, 2017 3:38 pm

Ruse wrote:

another idea could be to create an oak cup to create games beetween realplayer teams from diffrent divisions. Their could be groupstages untill day 20 or 25. New teams join the cupgroups. as deciding factor counts not most wins, but the elorating like in the first two seasons of the game.
The best 8 play the finals.


That idea sounds amazing honestly but I would put cups within the division for every division every season plus the CWC every four seasons. We are getting out of the thread topic but still since you brought up the idea, I think the cups should only be within division and the same system as the CWC wich means teams are randomly drawn with the other teams in their division and play a single elimination match. This would add another competitive aspect in the game and it would only be of 4 games max for teams at the top and maybe 5-6 for the lower division teams that have more than 1 league in their division. If not, changing the format of the season to put some playoffs would be amazing also. Like reduce the season to 27 days and have quarter-finals during day 28, semis for day 29 and the finals for the last day. Would really help put the suspense up during the final days of the seasons and help create some nice rivalry between teams too.
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Founded season 47,
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Season 53 Bronze league 2 co-champion,
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Zankman
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Re: Merge the Oak Division Groups?

Postby Zankman » Sat Apr 22, 2017 10:54 pm

Well, just having Division Cups every Season would be cool, of course, but it would definitely take a lot of work to keep running effectively.
Legacy of the London Dynamo
Founded:
Season 30 - Sapling 8.
Promotions (first season in new league):
Season 31 - Oak 5.
Season 32 - Iron 4.
Season 34 - Steel 3.
Season 37 - Bronze 2.
Season 38 - Silver.
Season 41 - Gold.
Season 44 - Honour.
Titles:
Season 48 - Club World Cup 1st Place.
Highest Honour Placement(s):
Season 44 - 5th.
Rivals:
Isle of Man Hood, Gillingham Giants, London Asswinders, London Ravens, Exeter Patronum, Dudley Dursleys...
Inspiration
London Inquisitors (RIP, S24 - S40).
Engelbert
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Re: Merge the Oak Division Groups?

Postby Engelbert » Tue Apr 25, 2017 12:39 pm

Considering everything discussed here, four Sheffield teams (Owls, 7Hills, Blades, Bees) from the Oak Division created the Glass Group.

The Glass Group is a group of small teams that want to experience the best possible experience inside this game. Therefore, it is formed by players from Oak Division that want to play games in a daily base (not weekly, as it is going so far) and that believe that excessive loans create artifitial teams and an artifitial game. The Glass Group discussed, implemented and currently is playing the Glass Cup.

In the Glass Cup each of the four team plays against each other four times. As we believe that draws should be allowed in the game, every victory gives 3 points and every draw (something that does not happen in this manager game) gives 1 point. Those are the results of the first round:

Owls 380 X 130 Bees
Bees 120 X 260 Owls
Blades 320 X 330 7Hills
7Hills 230 X 140 Blades

The next round will have the following matches:

Owls X Blades
Blades X Owls
Bees X 7Hills
7Hills X Bees

Further update about the competition will be provided in the future.
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Zankman
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Re: Merge the Oak Division Groups?

Postby Zankman » Tue Apr 25, 2017 11:24 pm

^^

That is cool as heck!

Very interesting.

I suggest you post about it in the Pitchside Tavern, maybe make an official Thread about it.
Legacy of the London Dynamo
Founded:
Season 30 - Sapling 8.
Promotions (first season in new league):
Season 31 - Oak 5.
Season 32 - Iron 4.
Season 34 - Steel 3.
Season 37 - Bronze 2.
Season 38 - Silver.
Season 41 - Gold.
Season 44 - Honour.
Titles:
Season 48 - Club World Cup 1st Place.
Highest Honour Placement(s):
Season 44 - 5th.
Rivals:
Isle of Man Hood, Gillingham Giants, London Asswinders, London Ravens, Exeter Patronum, Dudley Dursleys...
Inspiration
London Inquisitors (RIP, S24 - S40).

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